Ep. 101: Honoring AAPI Heritage Month

EQ: How can we intentionally highlight, honor and celebrate AAPI folks (contemporary or historical) during the month of May?

On this episode of IWL, Hope and Megan discuss the history of AAPI Heritage month and unpack the often problematic erasure of Asian history in the United States. We begin by discussing the term “AAPI”, where it originated, and the case to stop its use.

Megan shares her history and identity in the Asian American community and both women discuss the problems and harm of the idea of the “Model Minority” myth and emphasize the importance of educating ourselves about all parts of Asian American and Pacific Islander history in order to better inform how we can be allies moving forward. Hope and Megan share ideas for how to celebrate and honor this month both in the classroom as well as in our day to day lives.

Related Links:

Do Your Fudging Homework:

  • Please take the time to learn the stories and histories of the many different people and cultures that make up the label Asian American Pacific Islander. 

Ep. 100: A Centennial Celebration with Special Guest Author S.K. Ali

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EQ: How can we normalize the representation of Muslims in literature and support storytelling that tackles Islamophobia, increasing empathy across cultures and religions? 

For IWL’s special 100th episode Hope and Megan are joined by the very special guest, S.K. Ali. Ali is the author of Saints and Misfits, a 2018 William C.Morris award finalist, and Love from A to Z, an NBC Today Show’s “Read with Jenna” Book Club selection. During this episode they discuss the importance of representation of POC  in literature, specifically around Muslim characters. Ali shares about her journey to becoming an author and reflects on her intentionality of de-centering the white gaze in her writing. 

Author and books recommended in the episode:

  • Randa Abdel-Fattah - Does My Head Look Big in This?

  • G. Willow Wilson - Alif the Unseen

Related Links:

Do your fudging HW:

Ep. 99: Deliberatively Inclusive-An Interview with Inclusion Consultant Emily Meadows

EQ: How can schools and educational systems be better allies and create more inclusive spaces and policies for LGBTQ+ youth?

In this episode, Megan and Hope dialogue with Emily Meadows, an LGBTQ+ consultant and published author specializing in international schools. Throughout the episode, they discuss the ways school leaders can be intentional in efforts of inclusion, specifically with supporting LGBTQ+ students. Emily reflects on common mistakes in educator allyship and shares practical advice for schools on their journey to developing supportive, accepting school communities. Follow Emily Meadows on Twitter. 

Related Links:

Champagne & Real Pain:

🥂 Stella Keating testifying 

👎🏻 The targeting of Asian Americans in hate crimes

👎🏻 NCAA and the inequities between the mens vs women’s tournament

Do Your Fudging Homework:

Ep. 98: #ReadLessBasic Book Club--Caste by Isabel Wilkerson

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We’re joined by Nerd Farm podcast host, Nate Bowling and Middle School Humanities teacher, Crissy Calera for this discussion of Caste, our #readlessbasic book club choice. We’re also delighted to include recordings from Megan’s students as they share their encounters with the text. This rich and challenging book is more complex than this hour of conversation could capture. After listening to the podcast, please check out the episode released on Nerd Farmer Podcast. #NerdFarmReads and Caste in K-12 & Policing

We also encouraged you to read some of the following sources:

Ep. 97: Make Space for Intersectional Conversations This Women's History Month

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Essential Question: How can we intentionally highlight, honor and celebrate “forgotten” women in history (WOC, Trans women, Indigenous, etc.) during Women’s History Month

In this episode Megan and Hope reflect on the lessons they learned during Black History month and  discuss the origins of Women’s History Month in the US. It was thanks to Jimmy Carter that in 1980 the week of March 8 was officially proclaimed  Women’s History Week. Then, Congress passed a resolution that eventually expanded it into a Month. More importantly on a global scale people around the world celebrate March 8 as International Women’s Day.  This year’s International Women’s Day theme is “Choose to Challenge” and the organizers have said, “A challenged world is an alert world. Individually, we're all responsible for our own thoughts and actions - all day, every day. We can all choose to challenge and call out gender bias and inequality. We can all choose to seek out and celebrate women's achievements. Collectively, we can all help create an inclusive world.” Post historical context, the IWLs analyze what it means to “choose to challenge”, including who has paved the way for women’s rights and who are a few unsung heroes we all should know more about. Lastly, Megan and Hope commit to challenging the status quo and #beinglessbasic this month (and all year long!)

Related Links:

Where to Spend Your Money This Month:

Finish reading by March 13 for the #readlessbasic book club conversation!

Finish reading by March 13 for the #readlessbasic book club conversation!

Follow us on Twitter @IWL_Podcast or find us on Facebook

Ep. 96: Moving Beyond Tropes--A Discussion about BHM in Schools

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Essential Question:  How can you move your work with BHM out of whitewashed ideals and into a less basic space?

In this episode, Megan and Hope discuss the importance of Black History Month, why it’s still needed and how teachers should continuously embed the stories and histories of Black people all year long. 

Decentering whiteness and white comfort at this time of the year is crucial for any educator but especially those who tout their anti-racist identity. Many of us are taught that there is a Villain, Victim, and a Hero in every story. White people have been taught our whole lives that they are the heroes, and if they can’t be the heroes then they are the victims. White allies need to be comfortable accepting that they are not the heroes in the antiracism story and that in fact, they have been the villains to the BIPOC experience for centuries.  White people need to actively work to not center whiteness or white comfort. 

Resources referenced:

Who to follow on social media:

Do Your Fudging Homework:

  • Hope: Continue to integrate BHM into your lessons this month and don’t give up on this aspect of the work even in a pandemic.

  • Megan: Go follow Garrison Hayes - and then do/read what he recommends. His Instagram is good, but his Tiktok is better. Garrison Hayes - TikTok - Insta @garrisonh

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Book Club Reminder:

Pick up a copy of Caste by Isabel Wilkerson to join the collab book club between The Nerd Farmer Podcast and IWL.

  • Tweet about the book with either #nerdfarmreads or #readlessbasic

Follow us on Twitter @IWL_Podcast or find us on Facebook

Ep. 95: IWL Crossing--On Returning To School in Tacoma

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Tacoma Public Schools plans to return all grades to some in-person classroom teaching next month. Frankly, the “plans” sound more like “wishes,” “hopes,” “fingers crossed,” “it sure would be nice…” So, what do teachers think about that, and what should parents be asking?

Megan, Hope, and Auntie Evelyn join up again to discuss the latest news on the return to school for Tacoma Public Schools. There are only three months left in the school year–do we use them for something entirely new (which could be a super-spreader event daily), or use the time to get everything organized so that schools really can be on track to return in the fall? It’s not an easy question to answer, and well-intentioned people will have wildly different opinions based on risks, family situations, and experience.

Relevant Readings:

Do Your Fudging Homework:

  • Call/email the City Council

  • Call/Email the school board

  • Call/email the Superintendent Carla Santorno—csantor@tacoma.k12.wa.us

    • Deputy Superintendent Josh Garcia—jgarcia2@tacoma.k12.wa.us

  • Post on Social media and tag the school district and Superintendent.

  • Get your friends to do the above

Ep. 94: New Year, New Boos

EQ:  How can people safely navigate singledom and dating in the midst of a pandemic and in a post 2020 world?

In today’s episode, Hope and Megan are joined by guest Katie Walters to discuss the tumultuous world of online dating during a global pandemic. The conversation spans the spectrum of dating horror stories to conversations about what we owe each other in the virtual dating world. The three discuss whether the rules of dating have been changed after 2020 or whether they have (unfortunately?) stayed the same. We have a drop in guest appearance by Andrew Hammond from Into the Archives with A-Hamm.

Links from the episode:

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Book Club Reminder:

Pick up a copy of Caste by Isabel Wilkerson to join the collab book club between The Nerd Farmer Podcast and IWL.

  • Tweet about the book with either #nerdfarmreads or #readlessbasic

Ep. 93: IWL Crossing: Tacoma School Schedules and Teacher Respect; WTF TPS?!

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Over the last week Tacoma social media has been abuzz with concerns about a “new” classroom schedule for Tacoma Public Schools that is to go into effect on February 8. The schedule shows “in person” teaching in the afternoons and remote learning in the morning.

Why? Our COVID 19 numbers are far worse now than they were last March, and there are new variants that are even more contagious. Yes, everyone, especially teachers, students and parents, wants to get back to normal. But we need to do that safely. Can we safely return students to the classroom now?

Well, it turns out that the schedule showing “in person” class periods really means “eventually, when we return to in person teaching, it will be on this schedule, so let’s try this schedule out now even if it is disruptive and results in less actual class time with students.” In response, many teachers and parents are saying “WTF TPS?!!!”

In this joint episode of Crossing Division, Tacoma’s Talk Show, and Interchangeable White Ladies (IWL), Tacoma’s premier teaching and equity podcast, IWLs Hope Teague-Bowling and Megan Holyoke join Evelyn Lopez to talk about what’s going on in Tacoma School World. Why a schedule change now? Has the teachers’ union sold out its members? And what we can do about it? Listen and let us know what you think, and what should happen next!

To understand this better, check out the following links:

Ep. 92: New Year, Same You

EQ: What belief, practice, habit, or mindset are you taking with you in 2021?


In today’s episode we talk all about New Year, Same. Old. You. With the New Year comes the pressure to create resolutions and completely change who you are, but what if you don’t have to throw everything out? Hope and Megan discuss the lessons that they learned in 2020 and why they want to bring those with them into 2021. In the back half of the episode, they explain what NOT to bring with you into 2021 and highlight some white people who just keep on insisting on white people-ing. 

Related to our Discussion:

Do Your Fudging Homework:

  • Do something this week to continue to practice the lessons from 2020.

Book Club Reminder:

Pick up a copy of Caste by Isabel Wilkerson to join the collab book club between The Nerd Farmer Podcast and IWL.

  • Tweet about the book with either #nerdfarmreads or #readlessbasic

Follow us on Twitter @IWL_Podcast or find us on Facebook

Ep. 91: Champagne and Real Pain, 2020 Year In Review

Dear listeners, we brought the gang of interchangeable hosts back together for this special episode—the final show for 2020!

EQ: Who or what from 2020 deserves some champagne 🥂 and real pain👎🏻 pain this year?

Today’s special episode is all about the Real Pains of 2020 (there were many) and raising a glass in collective, and socially distanced celebration of the good things from 2020 (yes, there were good things!). Hope, Annie, and Megan discuss their top 3 Real Pains of 2020 and then finish the episode with their top 3 Champagnes. We also include honorable mentions shared by some of our listeners throughout the episode. 

Additional Resources

Book Club Reminder:

Pick up a copy of Caste by Isabel Wilkerson to join the collab book club between The Nerd Farmer Podcast and IWL.

  • Tweet about the book with either #nerdfarmreads or #readlessbasic

Audio Block
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Ep. 90: Out, Damned Test!

EQ: Should Universities that adopted test-optional practices due to Covid maintain these policies in the post Covid world?

Guest: Mallory Torgerson-Preuitt (torgersm@seattleu.edu)  has worked in Higher Ed for 10+ years in a variety of positions and is currently the Associate Director of Transfer Admissions at Seattle University. She has spent her career focusing on accessibility to higher education and working to change the review process for transfer applicants to focus on counseling and advising.

Our conversation today focuses on test optional Universities and ultimately its role in equity and access to higher ed. We are joined by Mallory Torgerson-Preuitt, who opens the conversation by sharing her own journey to her higher education admissions work, focusing on how she didn’t find the right fit immediately, and how she stepped into her own during her time at a Community College. The discussion then moves into how Seattle University moved to a test optional model, even before Covid hit. The conversation hits on access and equity to test prep, testing sites, preparation, transportation and equitable rigor. We make the case for why Universities should consider keeping their Covid test optional policies in place for long after Covid leaves.

Related Links:

Champagne and Real Pain:

🥂The court transcripts re: Election 2020

🥂 All the admissions and high school counselors who are working their tail off during the Covid times
👎🏻 The White House refusing to answer the public's questions during a pandemic.

👎🏻Those election lawyers who are fighting for the election fraud angle. Shame Bell on getting State abbreviations wrong.

👎🏻All of the people that are not following Covid guidelines and being good community members.

Do Your Fudging Homework:

  • Hope/Megan: Read and tweet about Caste! Read with some friends.

  • Mallory: The Daily Podcast. Really good digestible news.

Book Club Reminder:

Pick up a copy of Caste by Isabel Wilkerson to join the collab book club between The Nerd Farmer Podcast and IWL.

Tweet about the book with either #nerdfarmreads or #readlessbasic

Ep. 89: Put Your Money Where Your Mouth Is

EQ: How can  financial giving a vital part of our equity & justice work?

Our conversation today focuses on how your annual giving can #belessbasic. As we know better, we need to do better, and that includes our giving.  We first focus on why you should care about where you are giving, and how you might think about where you choose to give your money. Hope and Megan then move into sharing the organizations that they choose to support, ranging from a wide variety of social causes. They end the episode talking about the suggestions that came in from some of our listeners. You can find an extensive list of resources below to the organizations that we discussed in today’s episode.

Tacoma-Local Orgs to Support:

Some of Hope’s Favs:

Megan’s Recommendations:

From our Listeners:

Ep. 88: Someone is Waiting for Who You're Becoming

Note to listeners: We recorded this episode at the end of October.

EQ: How can an emphasis on educational leadership impact and improve the recruitment and retention of teachers, especially Teachers of color?

Guest: Patrice Dawkins-Jackson, a Science educator, ambassador fellow, teacher leader, and ASCD Board Director. Patrice is also a Carnegie Foundation Associate, Director of the Post Baccalaureate Fellowship Program and Vice President of Cool Boys Communicate, Inc Board.

Our conversation spans a range of topics but centers Patrice's journey from the classroom into leadership. She shares her passion for being a disruptor, making pathways for students, and how we should develop our own pathways. One of the mottos she uses to drive her choices is the idea that “someone is waiting on who you’re becoming.” In order to make change we need to rethink our own roles and involvement in these changes. Additionally, she outlines some ways schools and districts should change to create more racially and culturally diverse communities by focusing on being places to belong. There is a necessary  mindset shift that those closest to the work need to commit rather than buying into something

Related resources:

Do Your Fudging Homework:

  • Hope/Megan: Check out Cool Boys Communicate Inc and Carnegie Foundation for the Advancement of Teaching

  • Patrice: Embody the idea that someone is relying on you. Get started on your journey and bring someone along

Ep. 87: A Letter to the 55%

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EQ: How did we go from the Woke White Women Movement that embraced BLM and rejected PSL in April to 55% of White women voting for Trump in November? 

We start this episode trying to build our empathy for all the basic white women out there by taste testing pumpkin spice flavored thing. We then launch into a discussion how shameful it is that white voters STILL vote for Trump DESPITE the last four years. As hhhwhite women ourselves (or white passing in Megan’s case), we feel especially convicted to “get our girls.” Ultimately, this conversation boils down to the fact that white women MUST do better and we cannot let our foot off the gas just because Biden is elected.

Jumps on soapbox: Equity is not a hat that you wear. Where you do a couple posts on your social media, read a book, and then you can walk away from it for the rest of the week, thinking you checked the box. It is simply not enough. Equity should be a value you carry with yourself all of the time. It should be a part of you and how you walk through life. Steps off soapbox

Related Sources:

Champagne & Real Pain:

🥂 The Judges who have absolutely no patience for the ridiculous lawsuits the Trump campaign is filing. Read the transcripts, they’re great.

👎🏻 The Texas Lieutenant Governor who offered up $1 million to anybody that could come forward with proof of election fraud… BUT a Champagne for the PA Lieutenant Governor who came back with the best tweet in response!

Do your fudging HW:

  • Megan & Hope: DO THE WORK.

Ep. 86: Raising STEMinists

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EQ: What does equity in science education in the Corona Era look like and how might teachers continue to evolve their practices to engage students in a virtual space?

Guest: Chanel Johnson, science educator. Check her bio and interview from  Leading Equity and Interview with Teachers on Fire. 

Of course we had to ask Chanel a little bit about the historic role Georgia is playing in the 2020 elections. However, our main conversation focuses on figuring out what it means to be a STEMinist and how to encourage students of color to see themselves as scientists. Chanel also gives us insight into how importance Science education is in the middle of a pandemic. Lastly, she shares resources and ideas to help teachers intentionally embed culturally responsive teaching practices in a virtual context?

We’re excited to announce a collab with The Nerd Farmer podcast. We’re both going to be reading and recording episodes on the book Caste by Isabel Wilkerson. Tweet about the book with either #nerdfarmreads or #readlessbasic

Champagne & Real Pain:

🥂 YO, BIDEN IS PRESIDENT-ELECT!!!!!!!

Do Your Fudging Homework:

Ep. 85: Confronting Barriers to Equity In Our Communities w/ Consultant Taniesha Lyons

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EQ: How has the work of diversity, equity and inclusion changed over time and why is this something organizations are still getting wrong in 2020?

Guest: Taniesha Lyons, community advocate, founder & executive director  of Taniesha Cares LLC whose mission is to empower people and businesses through consulting, resources, advocacy, and diversity equity, and inclusion (DEI) training. 

In this episode Hope and Megan are joined by Taniesha Lyons. They start the episode by talking about the importance of representation in all spaces, especially in education. By having spaces that are run by all white leaders, Cultural Imperialism is more evident and prevalent in that space. The conversation focuses on how organizations can and should include more voices in their organizations in order to create more equitable opportunities and representation or all. During the conversation they discuss cultural imperialism, social services and Covid, feelings around the new term BIPOC, and the trauma of code switching and the negative ramifications of school being a white space on students of color. 

Could you or someone you know benefit from some of the services discussed in the Podcast? You can find more information here:

Champagne and Real Pain:

🥂 Ron Banner - Clover Park Superintendent

🥂 Melanie Morgan - Representative for the 29th District  in the WA State Legislature

🥂 Marcus Young - Bethel School District School Board Member

🥂Larry Seaquist - Running for Pierce County Executive

🥂 T’wina Nobles - Running for 28th District 

🥂 Karen Dhaliwal - Bates Apprenticeship Navigator

🥂 Ben Feldbush - TCC Retention Specialist

🥂 Pastor C. Ivan Johnson - Pastor at Greater Destiny Church

🥂 Grant Twyman - Racial Equity Officer for Clover Park School District

🥂 All those writing personal letters to voters encouraging them to vote

🥂 Those having hard conversations w/ family & loved ones to ensure 45 is gone

🥂 Bea Lumpkin - the 102 year old women who essentially wore a hazmat suit to turn in her ballot

Do Your Fudging Homework:

  • If you would like to hire Taniesha Lyons or learn more about what she does  you can reach her at her email: Tanieshacares@gmail.com

Ep. 84: This is Where We're At

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EQ:  How can you, through the Trauma that is 2020, navigate figuring out what you can and can’t control and find the strength and persistence to change the things you can?

In this episode Hope & Megan recap ideas from episode 80 “Back to School Coronavirus Edition” and the predictions we had about returning to school. Now, weeks into the school year it’s apparent no one knows what they’re doing and we’re all barely holding on by a thread. Teachers, students, and families alike are trying to maintain some semblance of sanity with the ever shifting tide of expectations. With basically no leadership from the Federal Government and varied support from local leadership, the stress and trauma from living in the Rona Era continues to escalate. The conversation runs the gamut of topics including why we should/shouldn’t have in-person teaching, how we are trying to focus on what we can control and how we are finding slivers of joy in the midst of a pandemic. 

We hope that educators listening will feel a sense of solidarity and perhaps walk away from this with a few ideas for your own instructional practice. We also hope that for listeners not in education, this conversation shines some light on what is happening. 

Champagne and Real Pain:

🥂 All of the teachers out there that have been showing up the best they can, with all odds against them, and doing the damn thing.

👎🏻 Real Pain to 2020 man… like, why won’t it stop? Also, to the governor of Texas for an egregious block on Texans' right to vote.

Do Your Fudging Homework:

  • Megan: Go outside and get away from screens. Give your brain a break. Do it. You’ll like it. I promise.

  • Hope: Build in some time to escape or do something that brings you joy even if you feel it will put you further behind.

Ep. 83: Kill the Ogre of Post Secondary Education with Katie Wallace

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EQ: What are the unique challenges of BIPOC students in post-secondary education and how can these institutions begin to dismantle their oppressive systems and histories in order to create a more inclusive and accessible community for these students?

Guest: Katie Wallace is an educator living and working in Seattle. She's Korean-American, adopted, and grew up in a multiracial family. After eight years teaching high school Spanish in Central and South Seattle, she transitioned out of the classroom and into higher education. She now leads a paid internship program for undergrads working with nonprofit and public sector organizations. 

Hope and Megan sit down with Katie Wallace to discuss the experience of BIPOC students in Post-Secondary education. As more BIPOC students are enrolling in Post Secondary education, the conversation is shifting to how are Universities creating equity in the experience of these students. The conversation focuses on the retention of students of color, and what the responsibility is of the Universities/Colleges regarding this work.

Resources Referenced:

Champagne & Real Pain:

🥂Not related to our topic at all, but if you are Christian leaning go listen to Chasing Justice podcast or pick up “Raise Your Voice: Why We Stay Silent and How to Speak Up” 

🥂The Republicans who spoke at the DNC and endorsed Biden despite party politics.

🥂Orientation Leaders at Colleges who are still showing up and serving the first year students

👎🏻Lack of care around face masks and people that are not listening to science and making life more challenging for business owners.

👎🏻People that are still opening schools and are ignoring the science around reopening

👎🏻Covid causing rituals and traditions to look very different and having to experience very real things on a screen

Do Your Fudging Homework:

  • Katie- Disturbing Your Peace podcast - Created by Katie’s former student

  • Hope- not related to our topic at all, but if you are Christian leaning go listen to Chasing Justice podcast or pick up “Raise Your Voice: Why We Stay Silent and How to Speak Up” 

  • Megan- Find your ballot dropboxes in your area. Request your ballot early. Drop off your ballot directly to a dropbox early. Then, buy a book of stamps.

Follow us on Twitter @IWL_Podcast or Facebook: Interchangeable White Ladies Podcast

Read Less Basic Book Club: The Body is Not an Apology

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Essential Question: How can radical self-love and our relationships with our own bodies change the systems and world around us?

Guests: 

Janice Bridges-- Janice is a Mom of 4 of The Best People in the World and grandma to 4 amazing boys.She lives in Tacoma and loves it. She is retired after working nearly 20 years at Pierce County Juvenile Court.

    • She is also running for Pierce County Sheriff (find out more details on FB)

Christina McDade--Christina is from Gary, Indiana and has been working on behalf of teens most of her professional career. She is currently a high school counselor in Abu Dhabi. And like most of us, has been caught up in diet culture most of her life. She was also a guest on Nerd Farmer Podcast Ep 90 “On Representation & Making Space for Black Women in the Workplace”

Megan Holyoke joins Hope in her first episode as Co-host to discuss Sonya Renee Taylor’s book The Body Is Not An Apology. The episode starts with an overview and conversation about initial thoughts on the book. We then move into defining what Radical Self Love actually is and have a discussion on how it is different from Body Positivity. We have an honest conversation about our own relationships with our bodies, and reflect on how that relationship impacts the people and systems around us.  

List of Resources/Social Medias mentioned:

Learn more about Janice Bridges campaign for Pierce County Sheriff at the Facebook Page Mamzforsheriff